Live from Arisia 2024

[00:00:09] Speaker A: Hello and welcome to small publishing in a big universe. I am your host, L. A. Jacob. Coming from our sponsors this month from Water Dragon Publishing, Revan's Heart by Stephen D. Brewer and in Dragon Gems this month can consider the possibilities by Stephen James. Today we have special interviews live from Arisia, a convention in Boston, Massachusetts. So please welcome our guest host, Brian Bull. But first, here is Water Dragon Publishing's newest offering, Dragon Gems Winter 2020 4024, an anthology of short tales to get you through the long winter months. From an activist releasing the so called monsters to parodies of present day life in a speculative fiction genre, this anthology will warm you with its variety and humor for a limited time. Get the digital editions of our other Dragon Gems anthologies for only $0.99 each. For more information, go to waterdragonpublishing.com dragongemswinter 2024. [00:01:42] Speaker B: This is small publishing in a big universe, live from Arisia. My name is Brian Buell and I'm the guest host. And would you go ahead and give me your name and your pen name and a little bit about yourself? [00:01:53] Speaker C: My first name is Ashley. My main pen name is Bethany Baker, and I am kind of transplant to the Massachusetts area and have been writing kind of intentionally for probably about five years now and really have just been using it as an exercise to figure out what I like, find what's important to me, and just kind of to borrow from Marie Kondo, just find what sparks joy. And it's been a great community. [00:02:18] Speaker B: As somebody with a name like Brian Buell, I appreciate the alliteration of your pen name. What inspired that pen name? [00:02:24] Speaker C: So in order to kind of find this way of writing for fun, writing in this lighthearted way, I was reading a lot of smut. I was like, let me write some smut. Just do what kind of can feel unserious and feel really indulgent and pleasant and lovely and had a ton of fun with that. And just one weekend in between work was like, all I want to do this weekend is bake cookies and write smut. And that just stuck. So I kind of took that and formed my writerly brand around that. Lots of cookie themed things and just this idea of a sweet treat, something cozy. Not that there's not some more kind of exciting or edgy elements that come into it as well, but really just capturing that essence of doing something for the joy of it and kind of taking that into the writing project that. [00:03:13] Speaker B: Is super, super awesome. What is your biggest inspiration when you're sitting down to write? I think you've given me a little bit of that answer. And what got you into writing in the first place was the thing that sparked in you like, oh, no, I am a writer. I should be doing this. [00:03:28] Speaker C: I'll answer the second question first because I think that one's easier. Basically, I can't remember as long as I have been reading, I have wanted to kind of put that energy back into the world and create something back. I think the first book I ever wrote was construction paper. It was a snake fact book, and I drew all the pictures for it in construction paper and wrote snake facts on every page and stapled it together. So I've always had this sense of finding things that I love and wanting to share that joy with other people. And then as I got older and read more books and kind of engaged with it, more books really shape you, and they can be safe ways to explore experiences that either you have had and need help processing or experiences you haven't had and are curious about. And so that purpose came into it as well, wanting to both share things that I love, but also things that have helped me grow, things that might help other people grow, and to kind of find that cozy place in the middle where parts of this are challenging, but parts of this are just about sharing what's fun and kind of those experiences. [00:04:28] Speaker B: I have been meeting a number of young writers, firing writers, people new in their career, some people that have been doing it for a while but are still trying to get their feet off the ground. What advice do you think you might have for people in that position that are trying to make an identity for themselves as a writer? [00:04:47] Speaker C: I think this was advice that I didn't want to really receive when I was a new author, but that has been really helpful to me, which is that your first book is not your only book. Your first book is not your only project. You are putting so much time and effort and energy into that thing. Sometimes you have to believe that it's going to be the breakout success in order to get yourself through that first work. But I am really happy that I wrote the first book that I wrote and that I then shelved it and wrote another and then wrote another and wrote another, which feels overwhelming when you're writing that first one. So it ever kind of lets you start that process. But I think when you can approach it from, this isn't the only book, it takes the pressure off in an important way, and you're just going to keep exploring your concepts and finding your voice and getting better over time. So writing more is, I think the biggest advice I would give to people. [00:05:38] Speaker B: Would you say that moving on and writing the next story taught you more about how to write? [00:05:42] Speaker C: Absolutely. I think I can look back and see different lessons that I learned from each book, mostly from what I struggled. [00:05:49] Speaker A: With in that book. [00:05:50] Speaker B: That sounds like fun. Getting back to the idea of advice and I mentioned there's been a number of young writers I've had a great opportunity to talk to while I've been here. What would you say is the best writing advice you've received? [00:06:04] Speaker C: I think it kind of goes back to what I mentioned before. But Neil Gaiman is an author that when I look at his career, that's really something that I aspire to in terms of being very diverse in the subjects that he takes on, really getting to explore a lot of things and being symbolic and kind of playing with some of these more shadowy concepts and interesting lore. One of the things that he always says when writers ask him for advice is just keep writing. And so I think when I look back, there's things that have helped me write better dialogue and there's things that have helped me do better sentence structure. But the number one thing has been to just keep writing and to keep writing when I don't have those things perfect yet, and to keep writing when the dialogue is not quite working and to keep writing when the plot doesn't quite make sense and just really trust that process. I think my main thing to say to people would be, be weird. Find the things you love and as much as you can, just shamelessly enjoy them. You will find so many people who are excited to meet you in that energy. [00:07:03] Speaker B: Thank you very much. With me, can you state your name and what you prefer to be called? [00:07:08] Speaker D: Yeah, sure. I'm Tyro man. I'm the karaoke superhero. I also have a television show on YouTube and on Melbourne's mass community access television. [00:07:19] Speaker B: And it's on public tv as well. [00:07:21] Speaker D: Yes, public access television. [00:07:22] Speaker B: Public access television. Great. What should viewers expect when they tune in? [00:07:26] Speaker D: Let me just start out with how we originated. It actually started back in the 90s as a fanzine. Tyro came about because Tyro means new person or beginner, like novice. So the idea of the magazine was to try to get new writers and artists to submit to us so we can print their stuff in our magazine. But we also went around, we did interviews with artists, writers, animators. One of the big names that I can name drop is we interviewed Charles Schultz and that was like a phone interview that we did. [00:07:56] Speaker B: How did you get into this what started you? What motivated you? [00:07:59] Speaker D: I've always been a big comic book collector, and growing up, I always did my own little comic book strips and stuff. In college, we had a club, the comics connection. I said we should have a newsletter. So it started out as the newsletter became a fanzine, and we did like maybe six issues of the fanzine. Years later, I was like, well, I had to stop printing the fanzine because of printing cost. But when we did the magazine, we went around, we dropped them off at all the Boston area colleges. We drop a stacking of Harvard. So years later, I found out about community access television, and I was like, well, gee, I think this might be easier because I don't have to edit it, because one of the things I always loved was doing interviews, and I interviewed tons of writers and artists and animators. So it's just been fun doing that kind of stuff. Then going to the conventions, we do reviews and take panels now. And I've always been big into all the geek stuff. I just love it all. [00:08:53] Speaker B: This is a pretty unique field that you're doing. Do you have any advice for anybody that else that would want to do what you're doing in their own communities or to start their own fanzine? [00:09:04] Speaker D: A lot of cities and towns, they all have their own little community access television. I would say get in touch with them if that's something you want to do. They have the equipment because the equipment obviously is very expensive. They have the programs, so they have, premiere pro is what I think most people use when they're doing the editing. And they'll help you get started. They'll show you how to use the equipment, they'll show you how to use the programs to actually do the editing. And a lot of them have, like, little classes that you can take to try to learn it. And of course, there's all kinds of stuff online. [00:09:34] Speaker B: Where can people go to see your show and your content? [00:09:38] Speaker D: We have the YouTube channel, Tywomag TV. So if you go to YouTube and search for Tywo Mag TV, you'll tyro Mag TV? Yeah. [00:09:46] Speaker B: With me we have. Would you go ahead and state your name and a little bit about yourself? [00:09:51] Speaker E: Sure. I'm LJ Cohen. I have done many things in my life, including a 25 year stint as a physical therapist, but now I am essentially, I consider myself a maker. I write science fiction and fantasy. I'm also a potter. I crochet, I knit, and I live on a homestead farm in central Massachusetts. [00:10:13] Speaker B: Tell me a little bit about what you write. [00:10:15] Speaker E: I tend to always lean into the speculative fiction. I think I am absolutely unable to write a slice of life fiction book that doesn't stray to the weird in some way or another. I have eight books out published in the marketplace. Five are a single science fiction space opera series, two comprise a fantasy duology. And then I have one standalone contemporary fantasy novel. [00:10:47] Speaker B: They can all be found on Amazon. [00:10:49] Speaker E: Yeah, they're in all the usual places. I'm not exclusive to Amazon. They're also on Gumroad in case nobody wants to go to the big bed corporate. [00:10:57] Speaker B: Do you have a favorite story that you've written? [00:11:01] Speaker E: I think one of my favorite stories is probably the one that sells the least. And it is my standalone contemporary fantasy called future tense. And it centers around a young boy who is aging out of foster care in an urban inner city environment, who has inconvenient glimpses of the future and he is trying to avoid them. And of course the more he tries to avoid them, the closer the visions come. [00:11:28] Speaker B: That sounds really great. [00:11:30] Speaker E: It is. It's a lovely book. And while it's sold the fewest copies of any of my novels, the people who read it are passionate about it and I get more fan mail from that particular book. [00:11:41] Speaker B: That's fantastic. [00:11:42] Speaker E: Though I think we don't see enough stories center around a protagonist in foster care or in that environment. And I really wanted to give him agency. And while I was never in foster care, I was adopted. And so almost all my stories talk about identity, who gets to choose who you are and found family. [00:12:07] Speaker B: I'm actually adopted as wow, small world. [00:12:10] Speaker E: Yes. [00:12:11] Speaker B: What's been the highlight of Arizia for you so far? [00:12:15] Speaker E: I went to an exceptional panel yesterday that was moderated by Andrea Hairstyn, who is amazing on writing hope. [00:12:25] Speaker B: Writing hope. [00:12:26] Speaker E: And the takeaway that I got from it is that rage is not incompatible with hope. And in fact, if you had no hope, you wouldn't care and you wouldn't be enraged. And so finding that balance between rage about things that are happening in the world that you don't want to happen and yet still having hope because don't do dystopic, I just found that a very valuable panel. [00:12:50] Speaker B: Do you think that the line then between maybe rage and passion is pretty thin? [00:12:55] Speaker E: I think it is. I think rage is a kind of passion. It's passion plus anger. And that's fuel, right? It's fuel for change. [00:13:03] Speaker B: I'm reminded of genre hope punk. What do you think of that genre? Is it a genre in your estimation? Is it well defined? [00:13:11] Speaker E: It's not well defined. I mean, genre in general is not well defined. It's very timey, whimy. In the doctor who sort of lexicon, it's very squishy. And I think you can put punk on anything, and it kind of sounds cool, so people use it a lot. I think if anybody were to say, define your genre in one word, for me, that's earnest. I don't know what hope punk is or how to define it, but I tend to go towards the earnest in the story of characters who are earnest, who care deeply, and who try to make change in their worlds. I don't want to be nihilistic. I don't want to write dystopic fiction. I know that the world is not a perfect place, and yet I think those of us who move through the world want to be able to feel like we have some ability to make change, even if that's only in ourselves and our perceptions. [00:14:04] Speaker B: I agree completely. In my time at Arishia, so far, I've met a lot of young writers and prospective writers, hopeful writers. Have you had any good conversations with any young hopeful writers so far this weekend? [00:14:17] Speaker C: Yeah. [00:14:17] Speaker E: In fact, I'm rooming with another author. We always room at cons together, and she has the teenage daughter of her best friend with us, and talking to her is just so delightful because everything is new to her. Every book she reads, it's the first time she's seen these concepts, and so it's been fun seeing genre through her eyes. Because you read enough, you tend to get a little bit jaded. I've seen this story before about 67 times. [00:14:49] Speaker B: This is, I think, maybe a little more personal question for me there. I've found that as I've grown as a writer, that a lot of the magic in stories is diminished a little bit because I can see through the curtains. [00:15:03] Speaker F: Right. [00:15:04] Speaker B: Has that been your experience as a writer as you've grown? [00:15:06] Speaker E: Yes, and it actually tends to manifest more in media. So my spouse hates watching tv and movies with me because I'll start rattling off. Well, this trope usually leads in this direction, and I can't turn it off. [00:15:22] Speaker B: When the camera lingers just a little long on some space that is otherwise unremarkable. [00:15:29] Speaker F: Right. [00:15:30] Speaker B: You know, you're already geared in for. [00:15:32] Speaker E: Something'S going to happen here. [00:15:34] Speaker B: Is there any advice that you'd want to give or impart to young writers that are looking to do what you've been doing? [00:15:42] Speaker E: I think you have to believe in yourself, believe that you have the ability to tell a story that is uniquely you. You may be borrowing tropes from all over. And in fact, a writer friend of mine who actually has a PhD in genre theory talks a lot about having a toolbox, and we are all playing in the same toolbox, but we all come up with stories that are unique to us because our lenses, our experiences are all unique. And so I think young writers tend to try to write something that's new and exciting, that's never been seen before, and that's not possible. But if they trust their own experiences and their own perceptions, they're going to have their own spin, their own shininess on those genre tropes. [00:16:33] Speaker B: So it's safe to say that what a writer brings to the story isn't a new take on the idea. It's their own voice and their own personality. [00:16:41] Speaker E: Yes, absolutely. [00:16:43] Speaker B: And along these lines, what is the best writing advice somebody's ever given you? [00:16:48] Speaker E: Oh, boy. Writing is a long game. It's a marathon, not a sprint. And the writing advice that I often give to other writers is if there was only one way to write a novel, there would only be one craft book. And we know that's not true. So find your process, experiment. [00:17:10] Speaker C: Trust yourself. [00:17:12] Speaker B: Before we sign out, is there anything else that you would like to say to any of our general audience? [00:17:18] Speaker E: Keep writing your stories because I need to read them as well as write my own stories. I think we get inspiration from everywhere. And the more exciting, wonderful, shiny stories that are out there, the better it sparks my own imagination. [00:17:35] Speaker B: I have with me. Would you go ahead and state your name, your pen name and whatever you'd like me to call you. [00:17:41] Speaker F: Hi, I'm Elaine Isaac. I also frequently write historical fantasy as Ec Ambrose. And you can call me Elaine. [00:17:47] Speaker B: Very generic question. Tell me about what you write and maybe a little bit about your process. [00:17:51] Speaker F: This is a bit tricky for me to answer because the book that I have out with Water dragon Press is called a wreck of dragons. It's a young adult science fiction novel described as Pacific Rim meets how to train your dragon. So it's quite different to my usual work. I'm mostly known for a historical fantasy series called the Dark Apostle, which is dark historical fantasy about medieval surgery. It's about as far from wreck of dragons as you could get. And then in between, I've written a number of thriller novels, in particular archaeological thrillers called the Bone Guard series. [00:18:20] Speaker B: So with wreck of dragons, you said it's different from what you normally write. So what was the inspiration and motivation to start in this different type of writing for you? [00:18:32] Speaker F: I describe my brand as knowledge inspired adventure fiction, which means I do way too much research, and then I come up with an adventure plotline that brings that together into an exciting story for the readers. So from that perspective, it's definitely on brand in terms of the actual content. I got inspired to write this book when I was between projects, and a friend of mine who was writing a book for her son said, oh, you should write something for your son, who at the time was about twelve. And I said, well, I could do that. That could be fun, but it would have to have dragons in it, or maybe giant robots. And then I thought, why not both? [00:19:06] Speaker B: And what did your son think of it? [00:19:08] Speaker F: He loves it. It took a little while for me to do the research, to come up with the outline and develop the plot and the characters, and then actually create the draft. And I read it aloud to my family at a camping trip, and the family was really excited about it. And he especially loved it when the book finally came out and I gave him a hardcover copy of it. It's dedicated to him for that reason. And he read the book, and then afterwards he said, well, was Johari the protagonist? Was he inspired by me? And I said, well, not exactly, but I would say he's the kind of person that I would hope that you would become. [00:19:42] Speaker B: What is your biggest inspiration? And if we go back in time, what got you into writing in the first place? [00:19:48] Speaker F: My biggest inspiration is probably my nonfiction, especially historical and archaeological stuff. I get really excited about weird little spaces in history or material culture, which is basically all of the things that are made of other things and why they're made that way, who made them. And that's often my pathway into discovering one of those little areas of history that I want to learn more about. The basis for a lot of human culture is the stuff that we make. Then we share and we buy and we trade. The materials may come from far away or from close by, so I do a lot of reading and research in those areas just because I'm curious or excited about it. And when I start to get the inkling of a book idea, I often will delve into the footnotes and the bibliographies of sort of more general resources. Then I dig down until I find sort of the gold and go, oh, wow, this is really cool. That's when I get so excited to actually write the book. Usually when I discover a character or a kind of person that I'd want to write about who's involved in that historical situation. My novel Drake Master is one of my historical fantasies. And it was written because of a footnote in another book that was about the history of clockworks. And there was this one little footnote about chinese clockworks in which the author quoted Needham, who was one of the leading resources on chinese history and culture. Something about the vermilion pens of the ladies secretarial. And these were the people whose job it was to write down the horoscopes of the emperor's children based on very detailed astronomical observations. And I just thought that was such a beautiful phrase that I had to know more and find the vermilion pens. [00:21:35] Speaker B: What's been the biggest highlight for you for Arizia so far? [00:21:40] Speaker F: Mostly meeting up with old friends. This is one of the conventions I've been coming to for a very long time. It's the first convention that I was on the other side of the table as a panelist instead of as a fan. So that has always felt like that sort of beautiful moment of arrival. Yes, I'm here. [00:21:56] Speaker B: Acceptance. [00:21:57] Speaker F: Yeah. So I am among my people, which is fun. [00:22:00] Speaker B: I've met a number of young writers, aspiring writers, this weekend. Is there any advice for people trying to do what you do or trying to become makers become writers if you ran into them at Arishia? [00:22:15] Speaker F: Oh, lots. But the first advice is often, finish it. So often I'll meet a young writer who's excited because they're three chapters into something, and then they want advice about publishing and, well, the first advice is finish it until you have finished a thing. You cannot polish it, especially if we're talking about your first novel. The end of the book teaches you how to begin it. If you got a great beginning, that's lovely, but it's probably going to change, especially if it's the first time that you've drafted something. Beginning, middle, end, a lot can change, both in terms of your writing style and habits. You learn more about the characters, you understand the world more. By the time you get to the end of that book, chances are the beginning is going to be different in order to suit that ending that you have now discovered. So step one is finish it and. [00:23:01] Speaker B: Then celebrate what is the best writing advice that you've received. [00:23:07] Speaker F: Back when I was a student at the Odyssey writing Workshop, one of the segments that we did was about world building makes sense setting, and she gave us an assignment to research something that would inform the setting of a fantasy story or speculative fiction work that you were working on at the time. And at that point, I hadn't been that much into research or history, but I had written a story that was kind of sort of like Mongolia. It had this horse based culture, and the people were nomadic and such. So it's like, well, I'll do some reading on Mongolia. And so I started reading up on that, and I got really fascinated by it. It definitely enriched the story I was working on. And then I ended up getting several other stories and, in fact, a couple of novels out of this new obsession with mongolian history and culture. So I would say to look deeper and dig deeper into the story that you're building, and there's probably ways that you can enrich what you've already got, even if you've got a good story, to make it go from good to great. [00:24:08] Speaker B: Is there anything else that you might want to say to our audience before we sign off? [00:24:13] Speaker F: Read what you love. [00:24:14] Speaker B: Read what you love. [00:24:14] Speaker F: A lot of times, people get worked up about, oh, there's thus and such a famous book that I haven't read yet, or all of my friends are reading this thing, and they're all raving about it. And if you pick it up, if you read a few pages, and it's not grabbing you, life is too short to read bad books, boring books, books that are not speaking to your soul. Sometimes you have to give it a little while. Sometimes you don't recognize the language of the book that will, in fact, reach your soul. So you might give it a few pages, think it over, and see if there's something in there that's calling you forward. Otherwise, close the book, find something else, because there's a lot of good stuff out there. [00:24:52] Speaker B: I have with me today Stephen Brewer. Stephen Brewer. [00:24:54] Speaker G: Please say hi. Hi. [00:24:56] Speaker B: I understand that your name is Stephen Brewer. Is that correct? [00:24:59] Speaker G: Yes. Although when I publish, I go by Stephen D. Brewer, just to distinguish myself from the other many, many other Steven Brewers. [00:25:07] Speaker B: I understand that your last name is Brewer. Do you actually brew anything? [00:25:12] Speaker G: I have been known to brew beer. I got a beer making kit, and I made beer several times. The first time it was Ike, and then the second time, it didn't really turn out quite right. I think I didn't quite clean the pipes well enough, and so I was trying to make an IPA, and I ended up with a sour, and then I tried making beer again, and I scorched the boil, and so I was trying to make an IPA, and I made a stout. And after that, I decided I would just buy beer because it's way cheaper, and you end up with really, really good beer to drink rather than weird stuff. [00:25:41] Speaker B: So you spend more of your time brewing than. [00:25:44] Speaker G: No, no. I spend almost all of my time writing. Except when you count sleeping, because I spend even more time sleeping. [00:25:49] Speaker B: Have you considered changing your name to Steven Sleeper or Stephen Ryder? [00:25:53] Speaker G: Never. No, I have not considered that. [00:25:55] Speaker B: We'll move on from there. As I understand it, this weekend you're selling better angels. Give me the full title of the story. [00:26:01] Speaker G: Better Angels tour de force. [00:26:03] Speaker B: Tell me a little bit about this story. And this is new. As of this weekend or. [00:26:06] Speaker G: December 15 was the formal publication date, but I received my first printed copy to actually look at just a couple of days ago. The better angels are a troop of non human biological androids that look like preteen girls that act as a magical girl singing and dancing troop. But they can change their programming and become a covert military force. [00:26:28] Speaker B: You personally have a nemesis. [00:26:31] Speaker G: I personally have a nemesis. Well, there is my editor, of course, but he's only a nemesis on paper. [00:26:38] Speaker B: Can we expect from your nemesis any stories called worst demons? [00:26:43] Speaker G: Worst demons? I suppose he might accept something like that for publication. I haven't tried to write that one yet. He did give me a hard time about the fact that after writing the better angels, I then have written a story called the Butter Angels. That's about a group of cooking girls that have a cooking show and that people sometimes mistake them for the better angels. And he said, so you're writing fan fiction of your own work now? And it's like, isn't that what I always do? [00:27:10] Speaker B: Butter angels? Sounds quite greasy. [00:27:12] Speaker G: Well, there was always the possibility of the batter angels, but the batter angels I'm using for their spaceball team, which is sort of like baseball with antigravity shoes. So you played up in the field and try and get suns. [00:27:25] Speaker B: As an author, I'm sure that you're quite excited about this story, so we're going to move on from that. Do you like jokes? [00:27:30] Speaker G: I've been known to tell a joke badly. [00:27:34] Speaker B: Let me put it this way. I understand that there is one very good knock knock joke. Are you interested in learning this knock knock joke? [00:27:43] Speaker G: Sure. [00:27:44] Speaker B: Okay, you start. [00:27:46] Speaker G: Knock knock. [00:27:47] Speaker B: Who's there? [00:27:48] Speaker G: Orange. [00:27:49] Speaker B: We'll move on from there. I have a statement here. I'd like your response from it. If you could turn back time or keep time in a bottle, how much wood would Peter Piper collect if Sally sold seashells by the seashore? [00:28:03] Speaker G: Silver bells. [00:28:05] Speaker B: Very good. Is there anything else that you would like to say before we sign out? [00:28:09] Speaker G: Yes. My name is Stephen, but it's not spelled as step n because I'm neither a chicken nor any kind of fowl. [00:28:16] Speaker B: Very good. This has been Brian Buell from small publishing in a big universe. I'd like to sign out and say, don't forget to spay and neuter your editors. [00:28:37] Speaker A: Max Fields is the place to see and be seen. Sadie always dreamed of living immersed in beauty, and she's now one of the elite team making this fabulous restaurant a retreat for Earth's powerful and fortunate. When a scruffy off wilder stumbles in, gazing at the artistic pieces like a tourist, Sally has an idea that he's about to shatter her worldview. Available in trade paperback and digital editions. For more information, go to waterdragonpublishing.com. Thanks again to our guest. We plan on publishing new episodes every second Wednesday of the month. Watch for new episodes around that time. To find out more about our featured products and books mentioned by our guest, please take a look at the SPBU marketplace at SPBU marketplace.com. Theme and ad music is provided by Melody Loops. If you want to know more about small publishing in a big universe, visit our website at spBu podcast.com. Send us your feedback by using the Contact us link, tweet or X us at SPBU podcast and like us on Facebook at SPBU podcast. This podcast was recorded and edited by yours truly La Jacob executive producer is Stephen Redecki. Transcription services provided by yours Truly, Lisa Jacob this month's episode was sponsored by paper Angel Press and its imprint water dragon Publishing and unruly voices. You can hear our podcast casts on Apple Podcasts, Spotify and Amazon music, and most of your favorite podcast services. Thank you very much for listening and talk to you soon.